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Commanders!
Today we want to talk to you about upcoming changes to the German Ground Forces tree with update 1.91. We have previously mentioned our plans to hide vehicles that were never fully materialized in real life as a complete vehicle, prototype or test vehicle. 3 such vehicles are the Panther II, Flakpanzer 341 and Tiger II (10.5 cm Kw.K), all of which have historical elements, but were never fully built. The Maus heavy tank also causes serious issues due to the impossibility of balancing it properly in the current gameplay situation. Since they were first introduced during the early years of War Thunder, the German tree has evolved massively and in order to optimize research progress and improve the trees overall balance, we plan to hide these vehicles from standard research.
All these vehicles will stay on the main tree for all players that have purchased them already. You will also be able to complete research if you started the research before 1.91.
Planned changes in update 1.91

- These vehicles will no longer be available for research after 1.91 and will become collectable machines to everyone that currently owns them. These tanks will not be hidden from anyone who already owns them.
- The gap after Flakpanzer 341 Coelian’s hiding will be filled with the brand-new Ostwind II SPAAG.
- The M48A2 G A2 will get the DM23 shell (same as the Leopard A1A1) and will move to Rank VI with a BR of 8.3.
- The new M48A2 C tank with a 7.7 BR will be added to Rank V.
All these changes will take effect in update 1.91. You have more than two weeks to start researching any vehicle planned for hide from the Panzerwaffe lineup.
In game the Maus is really the natural equivalent of other rare vehicles like the IS-7 and E-100. Large numbers of these machines should never really be present and the role that they play is very limited. In the exact case of the Maus, its exceptionally strong armour can be a menace for lower rank ground vehicles, whilst higher rank machines with more powerful APDS, HEAT or even APFSDS have no trouble overriding the Maus’s one key advantage. The design of the tank sacrifices speed and maneuverability for this overwhelming armament and protection which outclasses almost all WW2 designs, yet becomes rather meaningless when compared to postwar designs. As such, with Update 1.91 the Maus will become a rare event collectable vehicle. Being hidden from standard research and will now only be obtainable in future events and other opportunities later in the future.
Veterans of War Thunder Ground Forces will remember that the Tiger II (10.5 cm Kw.K) was the crown jewel of the German tree during the early stages of development. Added as a counterpart to the IS-4 at the time, this tank is based on a 1944 Krupp proposal to mount the 105mm KwK L/68 cannon on the existing Tiger II design that was rejected and never actually built. Ground forces and the German tree in particular has expanded exponentially since this tank was a necessary requirement for the German lineup and it no longer has a requirement to be within the main tree as a researchable vehicle.
Panther II in War Thunder draws upon many historical Panther projects and developments, such as the Panther II chassis that was built but is also armed the advanced Schmalturm turret design as well as incorporating plans to mount an 8.8cm on a Panther and several other proposals such as engine improvements and IR technology. All of which are historical proposals or actually built, but not on the real Panther II. The version we have in game is not the Panther II as it historically should be. As such, with the advent of the Leopard family as well as the incoming M48A2 C in 1.91, the Panther II will be retired to a collectable vehicle for all who owned it before the update.
The Flakpanzer 341 or “Coelian” as it originally was is a German SPAAG design based on the Panther chassis. Previously it occupied the Rank V spot before switching places with the more advantageous and deadly Kugelblitz in game and has since been the Rank IV German SPAAG. Whilst the vehicle was fully designed and proposed, due to the wartime situation no full prototype or production model was ever created. Only a full scale wooden mockup of the weaponry and turret, mounted on a full metal Panther chassis was ever made of this machine. In 1.91, the Ostwind II will take its position in the research tree and the Flakpanzer 341 will become a collectable vehicle as it was never fully completed project and other late war SPAAGs already offered superior alternatives to this machine.
New vehicles and tree optimization
Besides the above mentioned addition of the Ostwind II to replace the Flakpanzer 341 Coelian, there will also be a few changes to the current vehicle layouts. The German M48A2 C will be placed at BR 7.7, similar to the US M48A1. M48A2 G A2 shifts from the Leopard branch to replace 10.5 cm Tiger II and its rank changes from V to VI by the addition of a more powerful DM23 shell (the same featured on the Leopard A1A1). Its BR changes to 8.3, and makes the later German Patton close to the French AMX-30B2: both lacking a stabilizer, but bringing a very serious shell to their battle rating.
The War Thunder Team
Comments (986)
M48A2 G A2 + APFSDS + 8.3 + o stab.= absolute garbage
Just like the AMX-30B2 and BRENUS...a waste of time.
All answers (3)Conte_Baracca, That crap is barely usable in an uptier. Not mobile enough. Hull armor still usable against some APDS and AP rounds at 7.7, but can't deal with APFSDS. At 8.3 without a stabilizer means that your enemy will always have a huge ass edge. Prime example of making a usable vehicle at a good BR total shit by increasing it.
I would rather agree that the M48A2G2 should stay at 7.7 without the APFSDS. Although the APFSDS is good,it's hard to believe a tank at 8.3 without a stablizer.
TheGreenDevils, absolutelly right. Leopard 1 and both M48A2's should be stays at 7.7, it will be much good german ground vehicle setup. all M48(M60)'s w/o stabelizer at game have BR 7.7. why german M48 shold be at 8.3? i think its so bad idea! Like it! who think same!
Nice devblog! looking forward to it.
Do you actually think its nice to be lazy and just remove the vehicles that are hard to balance because of the badly compressed battle ratings? I think it will be much nicer to decompress the br's so ww2 tanks won't fight tanks from the seventies and eighties. And sure, these tanks never saw war, but also the t-34-100, t-44-100 and the alien obj-120 were hardly built, so I think it is pointless to just get rid of tanks, when they just need some work done to them.
I'm so sorry for what you will endure from other commenters. :(
Cam_the_man, nah, salty germany players dont argue with dummies
Will There Be Any "Optimalization" For Smaller / Newer Additions Tank Trees? Japan, Italy & France Having Big SPAA Gaps, Italy Mainly Having Big Gap At Tier IV, Japan Suffers From This Aswel To A Smaller Degree, Any News On That? Anyways, This News Is Good To Hear Anyway
I hope so, those 3 nations need more vehicles than anyone.
SlyOldSnoopy, dw comrade gajijlla is delivering a "brand new" m48 for the jsdf xaxaxaxaxaxaa much content)))))))))
Right now no. We have had this in plans for quite some time. But other trees may get reviewed later.
Smin1080p, couldn't you do community votes instead of just doing it, would get alot more respect for decisions made.
Had WT Actually fixed Their Game just maybe it would be even more successful in the sense of actually putting WW2 with WW2 Cold War With Cold War and Semi Modern To Semi Modern and when u add Modern V Modern
How to downvote?
by posting #savethemaus
Edit: I figured it out, troll comments are reported and downvoted
SHARKE_BYTE, Why am I not allowed to edit or delete my comments here
how about removing the the japanese Ho-Ri for the same renson like pantherII or removing the T95 for the reason like Maus? And may i aks that what can german do at 6.7 to counter with the LT/MT sea without a suitable medium tank?
Better question is when is Gaijin going to start removing russian paper tanks?
Sethiol, Removing russian tanks very unpatriotic comrade, while those filthy motherland invaders can suck it.
I love when gaijin removes fan favorite vehicles, Hay gaijin, can you the Sherman from the game too?! the P-40 is a trash bucket cut it from the game, make it a rare too.
Fans already unlocked the vehicles we're "removing" (hiding), and will keep them. The Maus was released in 2015, the Tiger II 105, Coelian and Panther II are there since the ground forces closed beta, the players who wanted to unlock them had some time to do so! And you still have some time to unlock them before this modification take effect.
All answers (9)Ouiche, but all, and i mean ALL of your trailers, pictures, and ads are with the bloody maus in it!! BUT NOW YOU ARE REMOVING THEM!?!? welp time for world of tanks.
All these tanks STAY in you hangar if you own them, or you may complete the research if you've started before 1.91. You have now more than 2 week to simply start it, and you'll be able to finish the research anytime after 1.91 released. They will be hidden from the newcomers, since we have proper replacement now.
Borisych, how is a crappy(proper) medium tank, supposed to replace 2 of the most fav and also unique tanks of WW2. Uncompressed the BR's and they will be "needed"